Respectful Parenting: A Conversation with the Children

Do you ever wonder what respectful relationships with children might look like in the long run?

What are the possible outcomes of the hard work put in from infancy to adulthood?

Tune into this conversation with two adult children raised with intentional parenting practices. Melissa Coyné, of UpBringing Consulting, her daughters Kaia (17) and Hala (22) and Christina Vlinder, of Respectful Caregiving, chat about the ever-blossoming dynamics of relationships built on trust, missteps, growth, and authenticity. 

Transcript below:

Christina: Hi, everybody, and thanks for joining me today. I'm Christina Vlinder, and I'm here today with Melissa Coyné. But let me introduce myself first, in case you're listening to this from somewhere where you haven't gotten that information already. So I've been working in the field of child development as an educator since around 2010, and before that also as a caregiver and nanny for most of my life, really.

And Melissa Coyné is in a similar field as me, and we are here with Melissa's daughters, Kaia and Hala. And we're going to be talking about parenting styles and how parenting relationships evolve from very little children up until older children, as Kaia and Hala are. So why don't you guys introduce yourselves? Melissa, you wanna go first?

Melissa: Sure. So my name is Melissa Coyné, and I'm also an early childhood educator. Kind of like Christina, it’s what I've always done in my adult career, although I also babysat when I was young before being an adult. Always been interested in being with children, and I currently am a nanny and a consultant and teach RIE® courses to parents and professionals who work with young children.

Christina: Yeah. And we've done some of that work together and a lot of it separately. And both of those will surely continue. So, yeah, Kaia, go ahead, why don't you introduce yourself? And maybe you each can share your ages as well, to give people some perspective.

Kaia: Okay. I'm Kaia. I'm seventeen.

Christina: Thanks for being here.

Hala: I'm Hala. I'm twenty-one, and I currently nanny as well. And I've basically also had an interest in children my whole life; I've grown up with, you know, a mom who worked at daycare, and so I've been around kids my whole life, and yeah, I currently nanny.

Christina: Great. Well, I'm really interested in hearing from all three of you, you know, how your parenting and child-of-parent relationships have developed over the years. I wanna make sure everybody gets time to talk as well. But Melissa, why don't you go first? Maybe you could describe, like, how would you describe your parenting? What have been your goals or main techniques with your kids?

Melissa: Thank you. Yeah, my main goal was to parent with intention from the beginning, and it's been a process. I've learned a lot about myself through my parenting from my children. Not just learning about myself as a parent but learning about myself as a person in relationships through being in a relationship with them. And I've just tried to come from a place of understanding and compassion, and really meeting them where they are, and trying to do a lot more listening than talking.

And my goal with that was to hope to create an open door for them to feel comfortable sharing their, you know, their thoughts and challenges and to just open the lines of communication between us. And it seems like that's happened, although I don’t—I’m not so naive that I think I know everything that happens with them, and I think that that's healthy, that they have a private world also. But yeah, that's been my main focus as a parent.

Christina: Yeah. Interesting. And what do you two think? Does that seem like she's hitting the mark, or how would you describe your mom's parenting style from your perspective? Kaia, Hala, you can both answer if you like.

Kaia: I’ll start?

Hala: Sure, you can start.

Kaia: Okay. Well, I think it was always very prevalent that my mom had a different parenting style than other people I knew and just most parents in general. Like, I remember even when I was really young, I would talk about stuff with my friends, and they would just kind of joke about how their parents would act when my friends were in trouble or did something, and it was just, like, what? Like, that's not what my mom does. And I think most people, however they were parented, they kind of assume that's how everybody's parented, and they think it's often normal.

This might be a lot, but I remember my friends joking that, like… When I was in fifth grade, my friends were joking that when they were in trouble, like, “My dad's gonna beat my ass,” and stuff like that. And I was like, “That's abuse,” and they were like, “No, it's discipline,” and I was like, “No, that's abuse,” because that's what I was taught, like, hitting your kids, you know? And so even from that, which is a bigger thing, to just the small things, it was really clear that my mom had a different parenting style, and I thought—I think I've always felt pretty lucky, though.

I mean, I think there was a point where I felt like… Even though I knew I could… I don't know. Like, I just think she—I think it's really made me the person I am, because whenever my friends often compliment things about me, like about just how I can regulate myself, I’m like, “I think that's just because I was parented that way,” and was given good tools and allowed to just be myself and not like… yeah. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Interesting.

Hala: They basically said everything that I would've said—Melissa and Kaia both did—but I would just say that, yeah, Melissa has parented with openness and communication from the start, and just allowed us to be who we are, and not get upset at us for telling her something hard that some parents don't want to hear their kids say. She always would be open and listen and not react. She wasn't a reactive parent. Maybe on the inside she was feeling some type of way, but she didn't show it to affect our emotions as children.

Christina: As you guys are talking and thinking about, like, the balance of structure and freedom, I think a lot of people who aren't super familiar with this approach to being with children—that I believe Melissa's using, from knowing her pretty well—might feel like it's very permissive and, you know, from what you guys are saying, like, “Oh, you know, she didn't punish us in that way.” What do you think—I wonder if you can think of examples of, you know, ways that it was, I guess, permissive or allowing freedom and ways that there was structure that was helpful, or unhelpful maybe.

Kaia: I mean, I haven't really been, like, the most rebellious teenager. I mean, I think the main things that have been more… like, the main things in my life, as I've been growing up, that have been more like stigmatized, I guess…? I don't know. I've been just kind of, like, experimenting with drinking and smoking? And I think— Wait, can we go here?

Christina: Yeah, go ahead.

Kaia: Okay. Well, yeah, I think it’s, like, kind of just when parents try to manage their kids more, that's when they kind of are pushed to do what they want, and sometimes not even what they want, just what their parents don't want, you know? And so I think by having my mom kind of just give me her insight and, like, not ever tell us what we could or couldn't do, I think that kind of made me—I always had her insights in my mind, and then I just made my own decisions based off of that and how I felt.

And I think it’s, like… I don’t know. I think it's inevitable for everyone—teenagers, humans—to make mistakes, and it’s like sometimes parents try to prevent the mistakes, I think? And it's like that's just part of growing. And, I don't know, I think— I don't know, I'm kind of going on a lot of different tangents, but overall, I think that by my mom not helicopter parenting us and treating us like equals, I think that definitely helped our development to be more natural? I don't know, it was just, you know, like, what happened happened, and for me it's worked out good. Like, I don't know.

I also think that the way that she let us feel our emotions has always been something we've talked about. Like, a lot of parents don't let their kids feel some emotions, especially when it comes to anger, and that can just be—like, anger is already a big feeling, but it's just ten times more frustrating when someone's not letting you just, like, feel that. And I think it's something that happens a lot to kids, and I think it's because—I mean, this is also a lot of stuff that my mom has talked to us about. Like, I didn’t just figure this out on my own, but, like, I don't know… People don't see kids as equals. Like, they see them as something they can talk down to and order around and et cetera. So I think by her letting us feel angry—like, whenever we felt angry, even if we were being not very nice, she would kind of just let us feel that, and she knew us well enough to know that we would come around and apologize and be able to kind of just speak about what we were feeling in a rational way.

And I think her knowing that would happen made me realize, “Oh, that is what I do. Like, that is the cycle.” And it made me—now, whenever I feel angry, I'm like, “Okay, I'm really mad right now. I just need to get it out, but I know once I do, I'll be able to calm down and be rational.” And I think it's just made me understand myself really well, because I didn't have to suppress my feelings, or just myself in general a lot, you know? So it’s—I’ve just, like… Yeah. So that definitely is something I'm grateful for about her parenting. And we both are.

Hala: Yeah.

Kaia: And we've always expressed that because it's weirdly rare for parents to just let their kids, like, feel how they feel.

Christina: Yeah. Weirdly rare.

Hala: Yeah. I wanted to share a story and something else that I forgot to mention about how she parented.

Christina: Yeah, go ahead, Hala.

Hala: She parented with honesty our whole life. She always had said that as long as we're honest, she would never be upset, but she didn't want us to lie to her.

So I have a funny story about when I was about four years old. We were at Garfield Park in South Pasadena, and I don’t—there was a party going on or something, and me and this little girl decided to flush a ping-pong ball and paddle down the toilet, like a tiny one, and the toilet wouldn't flush. Surprise, surprise. And I didn't know what to do. And I remember as a kid feeling so anxious, and I didn't know what to do. And my mom could tell something was wrong after I went back over to the party area, and she was like, “What's wrong?” And then eventually I brought her to the bathroom and showed her and was so scared for her reaction, even though she's never really gotten that mad at me in the past, but, you know, as a kid, I was really scared. And she literally just said, “Okay, we'll figure this out together. I'll never get mad at you as long as you're honest with me.” That's the first time I genuinely remember her saying that.

And I kind of started with that point, but that's when that all kind of, like, hit me as a kid, like, “Oh, I did something I knew was wrong as a kid, but I was a kid, so, you know, it felt fun to do something wrong.” But she didn't get upset at me; she just was happy I told her. And so that really made us have a strong bond, you know, to this day, and now I'm an adult, so yeah. From four-year-old to twenty-one, we've had a very honest, open relationship.

Christina: Yeah. A theme that I’m, like, hearing as you guys talk about it—and I wanna hear what you have to say too, Melissa—but what I noticed so far is it seems like the, you know, the freedom—both the freedom to experiment and the freedom to express yourselves—because that was present, a lot of the structure that other families rely on, like rules and punishment, was just less relevant, less needed, which is interesting to think about.

Yeah, so, Melissa, how would you view this balance between structure and punishment? And I'm sure that there were times when you implemented structure or set limits of some sort, and maybe you could talk about what that looked like as well.

Melissa: Well, I'm smiling because I do remember a small handful of times of making threats, like, because I was frustrated with some behavior. Saying something like, “You're not gonna go to that party that's coming this weekend!” But they were empty threats and all about my lack of regulation at that moment. And I would have a conversation afterwards of, you know, how I didn't mean what I said, and, you know, they could still go to the party and so forth. So, yeah. So it's been—there's been a handful of times that—of those threats.

I think that it’s—one thing I wanna say is I wasn't parented the way that I am parenting. And this allowing of feelings and really allowing someone to be who they are. And so this has been work. This has been work. When we parent from our gut, we parent how we were parented, and we raise children how we were raised, and when we want to do things differently, it's a lot of work, which means some mistakes along the way but also some success. So, I just think that's important to say, because it doesn't come easily to most of us.

Christina: Yeah, and I also appreciate that you're acknowledging that it doesn't have to be perfect, you know, as we know and say in our classes, the way you repair is more important than whether or not there was a rupture. So it's nice to hear, you know, that little reality check that, yeah, there were ruptures or times that you felt you made a mistake and didn't do it the way that you wanted to, but you also had practiced a way to come back together and fix the connection afterwards.

Melissa: Definitely.

Hala: And really quick to add on—it definitely shows that you put in the work too, because my friends throughout the years have all said that I'm so lucky and they wish that Melissa was their mom. So it's just because she's so open, and, like, if I tell them something that I, you know, that I did that wasn't necessarily, like… I don't know. I don't how to word it—like, the best or whatever? And Melissa knew about it, and she never, you know, reacted. They’re like, “I could have never told my mom that.” So I just wanted to say that, like, she was saying that there’s— The good definitely outweighed the minor bad moments, you know, that were not frequent. There was a lot more success. So.

Melissa: I've definitely tried to put our relationship in front of any kind of punishment system, right? Or any kind of standard, normalized parenting approaches, because the relationship is everything. That's where it's at for me. So the conversations that we had and the collaborating and the figuring things out together was more important than me punishing you.

Hala: There never was— Sorry, sorry. There really never was— I don't remember punishment. Like, that word was never used in our house.

Kaia: You know what word was used? Consequences.

Christina: Consequences. Yeah, I was thinking about, like, natural versus not natural consequences when Melissa said that—when your mom said that about, you know, not going to the party. So tell me about consequences.

Kaia: Well, it wasn’t— I don't know, maybe I just remember this wrong, but I don't think it was that often, but sometimes if, like, we weren't cooperating— I mean, I think it obviously hasn't been an issue since—well, maybe not obviously—but it hasn't been an issue since we were like young, young. But I just remember sometimes she'd be like—she would try—she'd be trying for a while to get us to cooperate or something, and then we—she'd be like, “If you don't blah blah blah, there's gonna be consequences.” And that was like our—that's how I was like, “Oh, okay.”

Christina: And Melissa, would you say that that came from your intentional or reactive parenting?

Melissa: It definitely came from my reactive, unhinged, you know, disregulated parenting, and I would put that in the category of the empty threats, and me not knowing how to get what I was—whatever I was after in those cooperative or not cooperative moments. I was, you know, pulling my tricks out of my hat that really didn't have any foundation.

Hala: Yeah, I agree with that, because I remember that word being used, but I don't remember any specific consequences that happened.

Christina: There weren't any.

Melissa: That makes sense.

Christina: Yeah. Interesting.

Hala: I mean, maybe every now and then, but I really don't remember specific things that happened, but yeah.

Kaia: I think another big difference that I kind of talked about was, like, the power dynamic. Like, she treated us like equals—well, still does—but she’s always kind of treated us like equals. And that's also something that's pretty rare, I think, among parents and their kids. And, like, I think by parents creating relationships with their kids that seem like, “Hey, I am in charge. I have power, you don’t,” it kind of, like, changes the kids' perception of them. Like, a lot of my friends have just recently been talking about the revelation. They're like, “Our parents are people. Like, they're going through life for the first time too.” And I think I was kind of just like, yeah, I mean that was more prevalent to me because my mom wasn't acting like she knew everything, and I think she was really transparent, like, about what— Yeah. She was just transparent. And another thing that kind of connects to that is I was listening to a podcast, and I'm bringing this up because when I told my mom, she was like, “You should talk about that on the podcast.”

But I had been listening, like, a month ago to a podcast I listen to, and the two people talking on it were, like, both in their late twenties, early thirties. And they were just talking about how, like, when you become an adult, it's hard to navigate your relationship with your parents because it’s, like, I don't know. They were just saying like, “It is so hard. No one talks about how hard it is because of the shift in you being an adult.” And I just was thinking and I was like, “I think it's hard because most parents treat their kids as, like, below them and not as equals, so once they are an adult and they can't do that anymore, it's like they have to kind of change a relationship that's been a certain way for, like, eighteen years and maybe more depending on the situation.”

And I just think, like, I don't think it will be that way with my mom because—I mean, I'm seventeen. I’m already kind of starting that transition into being an adult and having independence, but I just don't think for me—and, I mean, Hala can tell me what she thinks because she is, like, twenty-one—but because she's always treated us like people and just, you know, not based on our age, I think that isn't as hard of a transition because nothing's changing. Like, the age isn't affecting how she treats us in terms of respect.

Christina: Yeah, and thinking, you know, if your parenting style is something, like, you know, “You have to do it this way because I say so,” that would be pretty hard to transition to an adult relationship when your child is an adult, right? Because that's not really gonna work with an adult. And what do you have instead? Yeah.

Hala: Yeah. When Kaia started saying that about what the podcast said, I was like thinking to myself, “What is her point? I don't agree with that at all,” but she was just stating what the podcast said. But I was like, “Yeah, I didn't feel a shift at all when I became an adult,” because we've always had a good relationship, and an equal one, our whole relationship. So there really was no shifts.

And I seriously consider my mom one of my best friends, but I feel like I even considered her one of my best friends when I was a teenager. I would want to hang out with my mom, and my friends would want to be away from their parents. So, yeah, there's definitely, like, the way that the power dynamic is established when they're young definitely affects them growing up and adulthood, because then you— I have friends now who are the same age as me and their parents still try and tell them what to do, and they're 21, 22, and it doesn't work, and they don't have a good relationship with each other, because that was how they were raised their whole life.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah, I can—I don't have to imagine what that's like. From my own childhood, I've had examples. I'm thinking, Melissa, you know, from the outside perspective, it seems like, I mean, you've been realistic about times that it was hard, but maybe overall, like, pretty idyllic. Like, “Here you go, you get an A plus, you did all the parenting right.” But I think it's reliance on— Well, being able to be intentional and not reactive is very hard. And I imagine people listening to this might be feeling like, you know, it’s hard to do it calmly and not react all the time. Do you have any strategies or things that help you actually, you know, be calm when your child comes and tells you they just like vandalized a public toilet or something? Like, how do you keep your cool?

Melissa: You know, I think that being immersed in the child development world before becoming a parent really did help? Because I understood developmental norms. And another thing that I—I just, I remember being a teenager and the things that I did, and for some reason, I was able to keep that in the forefront of my mind when they then did something, you know, that some parents might not be okay with. It's like, “Yeah, okay. You know, that makes sense. I remember doing that, and I remember doing more than that. And, you know, let's talk about that.” But there have been times, I don't know if—Hala or Kaia, if you remember this—but there were times where I lost my cool and I would ask for a do-over. Do you remember do-overs?

Hala: I do remember that.

Melissa: I just would kind of step out of the room and come back and rewind and try again. And that just seemed to help everyone kind of reset and start over. I think a lot of it is the honest—the word honesty that you used, Hala, it—being honest with oneself. You know, being able to be honest with myself and see, “What am I bringing to this moment? What am I bringing to this dynamic?” You know? “What am I bringing to this relationship?” has helped. But yes, it's been a challenge, and there's been times where it's been a challenge, but there's also been a lot of times where it wasn't a challenge, because we established something early on, and we continued that, so we’re able to draw upon those early times and keep 'em going.

Christina: Yeah. I think, like, if I were to summarize what I've heard from you as far as how you were able to, or techniques, would be, first of all, having experience, you know, from being in the field and caring for other children, I think before your children— That's right, right?

Melissa: Right, right.

Christina: Yeah, and also information, you know, having information about child development norms is definitely really helpful. And, let's see… Your do-over technique, I might think of that also as, like, feeling like it's possible to be a little bit humble in front of your children and let them know when you feel like you made a mistake, or maybe you're not feeling well, or, you know, whatever might be causing you to be more on the reactive side and then the intentional side. Yeah.

Hala: I definitely agree with that. I forgot about that. It's been— I mean, we don't call it that anymore, but we do have things, even now, that we come back to. It doesn't necessarily happen immediately, but if there's an issue, we'll talk about it later when there's more calmness and time to process. But as a kid, I do remember that, and I totally agree with you. And I also, it just makes me think, too, of the parents that work with the children that I know, since I do like nannying and daycare stuff myself.

Christina: Right.

Hala: And how they don't like to admit if they—I don't wanna say did something wrong but didn't do something the way that they wanted to convey it or whatever. And yeah, my mom has always been able to admit when she did something that she felt was wrong or she didn't like doing. Like, always. There's never been a time where she couldn't admit, “Hey, I don't think I liked the way that I approached that or talked to you, and I'm sorry.”

Kaia: And I think having such a prominent role model in our lives, like, not be afraid to do that, it's made accountability seem like more of a strength than a weakness.

Hala: That is so true.

Kaia: And it makes it a lot easier to take accountability. So, like, just the way that she always handled her emotions, it was like we're—I think that’s—for me, at least, it really is helpful in my relationships because it’s, like, I think I've learned how to be very rational, you know?

Hala: I'm literally learning about myself and my mom and sister through this conversation. I'm realizing so much about how we definitely all are very—like, we're very perspective taking. I consider myself a very perspective-taking person in general. Always been like that, but I definitely think it's because of how Melissa approached her—like, she never made us feel as kids like we were—our emotions were not okay. She always acknowledged them and respected them, and, yeah, it's just making me realize a lot about—thinking about other people in my life and how reactive they are, and how they can't admit things that they don't like and they did, or that are wrong, and how we all have been very understanding people. Yeah, I'm just realizing that now, like, talking about it.

Kaia: And also I'm a very empathetic person, and I don't think I would be—it wouldn't be as easy to be empathetic if it wasn't so normalized to be like, “I did this because of this,” and, like, explain yourself, you know? And your process behind your actions. So I think that being normal and something that happened a lot growing up, makes it easier for me when someone does something, to think like, “Why did they do that?” Like, what emotions were they feeling?

Christina: So that's an example of you being intentional instead of reactive.

Hala: For me, I tend to be reactive in the moment when something happens, but I learned that about myself a while ago, a couple years ago, which I find very lucky. I mean, I’m twenty-one, so I'm still pretty young, and learning that about yourself when you were a teenager is nice to know, like, okay, well, I know a lot about myself and how I react to things, so I just need some time to talk about or to think it over, and then I can come back and then I'm calm, but that's who I am. It's not because of parenting or anything else. That's just who I am. But Melissa has—she knows that about me too growing up, and she acknowledged that too. She would say like, “I can tell you're really upset right now, and we can talk about this more when you are calm.

Kaia: I also think that having somebody be so gentle with us about our emotions makes it easier to be that way with yourself and be like—and not like—I don't know, like, when I'm angry, I just am like, “It’s okay. I'm angry,” you know? And I know it's not gonna be permanent. So I think like the way she treated us kind of formed how we treated ourselves, you know?

Christina: Definitely. I see that in the example that you gave a moment ago, Hala, about, like, knowing yourself, first of all, that you can be reactive in situations. And you're not, you know, attributing that to your mom, but the way that you cope with it does come from her, right?

Hala: Definitely. Yes.

Christina: Yeah.

Melissa: I think another one strategy that I also draw upon is to not take things personally. So, you know, somebody told me a long time ago to wear an emotional raincoat with your children? To put that emotional raincoat on, which means the feelings can still come up, but when they hit you, they just kind of roll off.

Christina: Yeah.

Melissa: And I've tried to remember that with emotions, that, you know, emotions come and go, and they have their beginning, middle, and end, and they need to come up to get out, and if I can be that, you know, landing space for them, I'll be there at the end of the, you know, the outpouring.

Christina: Right.

Melissa: But remembering to not take it personal, because it rarely was personal.

Hala: I think that's a huge thing, and it's so true because children really are, like, especially in the first five years, I mean, like a sponge, so they really do pick up everything, and yeah. She never—she really never took anything personally. So it just made us able to express our emotions without feeling like we are gonna get shut down, or she's gonna get upset at us for having an emotion. I know we kind of covered that earlier.

Christina: Yeah.

Hala: But I just—it's just interesting because all the things that we're talking about, I just see at the daycare that I was working at, and how a lot of the teachers there, I know they're not parents of those kids, but they didn't do the types of things that we're talking about, and I see how the kids reacted differently. Whereas some teachers, including me, were moreso like how Melissa parented and can, if they did something, they'll—they come to me instead of the other teachers, I've noticed, to tell me something that they did that was, quote, “bad” or not, you know?But they're all kids, so it's not even bad, but I think you guys understand what I'm saying. They just felt comfortable coming to me, or the teachers that don't have reactive—or take things. Yeah. Little tangent there, but I think you get the point.

Christina: Well, that’s—I’m glad you brought that up because that is something that I'm curious about, you know, I think that—well, I guess it depends where you are, but I think that this way of parenting, or caring for children, you know—in your case, Hala, you're talking about a childcare—is a little countercultural. You know, it's different from the way that you said that your friends are parented and different from the way, Hala, you've noticed other children at the same childcare where you work being parented. And I wonder how that is for you guys, for all three of you.

You know, what's it like for you, Melissa, to be a parent who's doing things differently, I assume, than at least some of the parents around you? I mean, as an educator, you probably also have parents around you who are trying to do it the same way that you are, but that's surely not everyone. And then, Kaia and Hala, I guess I have the same question for you two. Has it been, you know, challenging for you guys in any way to be parented differently from your peers?

Hala: I just feel, personally, not really challenging, but I've always felt very honored, honestly, because I can't relate to the things that I don't like that my friends growing up or other children, you know, in my class and elementary school would say. I'm like, “I don't relate to that.” So I just felt very privileged and lucky to not have to go through those experiences that they said. So, personally, I don’t—I never really found it challenging myself that I can think of. Maybe once Melissa and Kaia talk, I could—I will see a different perspective, but that's my initial thought.

Kaia: I think it always depended on who I was friends with at the time, and also, like—yeah, so let's start with that. When I was younger, and I didn't understand as much, I kind of did feel different, and I think I didn’t—I was, like, I mean, I don't know. Like, why is it that I'm the only one who it's like this for? I don’t know. And then, as I got older, I kind of—I definitely appreciated it a lot, and I still do. And I talk—I’m really close with my friends at school. Like, we've all been kind of in this group for, like, oh, two-ish years now. And I'm very open with them about how—like, they're aware of my relationship with my mom and how that's a lot different, and they always are saying how jealous they are, and they're just always surprised at what I can tell her and how open I can be because there's a lot more like secrecy for them with their parents. And there's definitely been situations where we were all in a stressful situation and I was able to just—I was like, “I’m just gonna text my mom. I’m just gonna call her.” And I think that always surprised them because they could never do that with their parents. And so now I definitely appreciate it a lot because I think—I don't know, like, life is already—I kind of said this earlier, but life is already kind of scary enough. Like, the last thing you need is a person that close to you that you should also be scared of, you know? Because, I don't know, it's just really comforting to be able to be, like, straight up and ask for advice in situations that are scary.

Christina: Yeah, I can imagine that, you know—I mean, I work with a lot of parents of children of many different ages, and, I mean, what you're talking about, it's like every parent's worst fear, right? That their child's in a situation that's scary or unsafe in some way and that they won't be able to do anything about it because they won't even know. And I think that all comes back to the kind of relationship you have with your child, whether they feel like they can be honest with you about whatever it is that's happening that's scaring them, if they can reach out to you or not.

Hala: Definitely. And one thing just to go off of that I wanted to mention is, like—it's a little example. I got hit a couple months ago turning onto a street, and the first person that I called instantly was my mom. That's just, like, one example, but she’s really my emergency contact. She's the first person I call whenever I'm in a bad situation, because even though I am an adult now, she's able to—I don't wanna say she doesn't treat me like one, she does, but she still is my mom at the end of the day, where I'm able to talk to her when I'm in need like that. Because I had never been in an accident like that before, and I didn't know what to do, so I was able to call her, and she helped me through it. When I was having my reactiveness and freaking out, she was the calm energy that I needed, and she wasn't upset or mad. And I feel like a lot of other—like, my friends would not call their mom if something like that happened. They'd probably call me or something because their parents would, you know, lose their mind and be like, “What happened?!” And my mom was just like, “Okay. Stay calm. I'll be there soon to help you.” So.

Melissa: The beauty of that is I get the phone calls when something good has happened also.

Hala: That's true.

Christina: Yeah, that's true.

Hala: We also call all the time about good stuff. Also, first person I call about good stuff is, seriously, it's always my mom. Bad or good. She's literally, like, friend—best friend—material.

Kaia: Yeah, and I think also a difference is that, like, when you are in that situation where you're calling your parent and you're scared and you just need some help, that's not really a time when you need to be taught a lesson or lectured about how your actions have consequences, because you've already, like—you're experiencing the consequences. Now you just need some support, you know?

Christina: Yeah.

Kaia: And I think a lot of parents, like, I don't know why they do this, but maybe they think it'll help their kids to, I don't know, discipline them or lay out what they've done and how they got there, but it’s, like, at that point, I always am already like, “Yeah, I know what I did, and I know what just happened. I just need help now,” you know? Like, with fixing it and—yeah. Like, I don't call my mom because I need her to explain to me what I did wrong, you know?

Christina: Right.

Kaia: I usually call her because I need someone to help me pick up the pieces.

Christina: Right. That was apparent, even in Hala’s story from when she was four years old, right? And the toilet got broken because of something she did. It's not like—even a four-year-old knew like, “I did something I wasn't supposed to, and there's consequences in that this toilet's now not flushing, and I need someone to help me with it.” And yeah.

Hala: I was— Sorry.

Christina: Go ahead.

Hala: I was gonna—

Melissa: Oh, no, you go.

Hala: Really quick. I was just gonna say that I was so scared that she would have a bad reaction, not because of reactions in the past but maybe potentially because I don't really remember much about that young, but maybe in my own daycare experience I was—when something like that happened, I would get a talking to or whatever if something happened. Like, “That's why we don't do it,” or something like that. But that day, I—seriously, it was life-changing. I realized she's not mad at me for doing this thing that I knew was wrong as a child. I just wanted to do because I was, you know, a kid experimenting with stuff.

Christina: Right.

Hala: That's all. I just wanted to add that.

Christina: Yeah, and in the moment, you didn't need help knowing whether it was wrong; you needed help repairing the situation.

Hala: Exactly. I was worried that, you know, probably because of other adults in my life, that I would have been told, “That's not okay,” and that's why I didn't wanna tell her. But her response to that was just like, “I’m not mad at you. You were honest with me, and that's what I value.” And I was shocked as, like, this four-year-old. I was like, “Wow.”

Christina: And there's the same dynamic in, like, you know, when you had this accident, right? Like, it's not like you didn't know that that wasn't something that you wanted to happen, you know? You already knew that it wasn't a good thing that it happened—whether or not it was your fault, of course, in that situation—and so you didn't need someone to tell you like, “You're bad for getting in an accident.” You needed someone to help you know what to do next.

Hala: Yes.

Christina: Probably a lot of practical stuff as well as, like, emotional regulation stuff.

Hala: Definitely.

Christina: Yeah. Melissa, what were you gonna say?

Melissa: Oh, I was gonna say that—to answer your question, Christina—that I can think of a few examples along the years where it's been challenging to parent differently. When social situations that involved, you know, my children and other children, and me and their parents coming at it from different perspectives and different approaches caused some, you know, conflicts between myself and those other parents. You know, with my sort of collaborative approach and their punitive approach, you know, butting heads, so I can definitely think of some of those. And I liken those to parents who, you know, who we work with and who say, “Well, you know, what do I do at the park when, you know, I'm parenting this way and other parents are not parenting this way?”

Christina: Right.

Melissa: And it's a true conundrum to hold onto what you know is working and your own values and, you know, desires for what you wanna create. To take a stand for that approach is hard. It's difficult.

Christina: I wonder—I mean, I would imagine, over the years of your parenting relationship, there's probably been lots of different outcomes of that. Maybe sometimes you don't end up hanging out with those parents anymore. Maybe sometimes you just kind of agree to disagree and not talk about it. Were there times as well where—I mean, I would imagine now, like, if I met you as a parent now, and I also had, you know, kids around the same age and I'd been parenting reactively, then I might feel really jealous. Like, “Hook me up with what you've got. I wanna get on board this train, where my kids do call me if something scary or exciting is happening in their life.” Has that happened to you?

Melissa: Not exactly. I haven't exactly had the, like, people see the outcome, you know, for themselves and then ask me, “How did you create that?” I haven't exactly had that happen, but I do have people who, you know, mention—I don't know. I guess it's more because I speak out a lot about how I see children in general.

Christina: Yeah.

Melissa: And people hear that, and so it might not even be people who are parents themselves, but they just see the value in, you know, my messages. I feel like there's a little bit of a—I don't know if it's a social justice element to my parenting, exactly? But it's just being able to see the human in somebody, rather than see them as, you know, your adversary. You know, seeing their behavior as coming from the human in them, rather than taking it, you know, to be some sort of attack on me or, you know, somebody else.

Christina: Yeah.

Melissa: So I do have people mention, you know, comment on things that they hear me say but not exactly saying, “How did you do that?”

Christina: I wonder if that'll happen now, after hearing everybody's perspective from this podcast, as a potential outcome. Yeah. I was—so we should probably wrap up sometime soon. But first, there is another topic that I wanted to bring up with you guys.

I guess this is more a question for Kaia and Hala than for you, Melissa, but maybe you'll have perspective on it as well, which is, I'm kind of thinking about the future now, like, passing things on, and I don't know if you two have any plans yet in your life to have children or not have children or care for children or not care for children, but I wonder, if you do have plans like that, do you think that you would do things similar to your mother? Or what would you do differently? There's gotta be some things you would do differently.

Kaia: I mean, I think I would definitely, like, follow her outline. I think—I don't really worry about what kind of parent I would be that much, because I know that I'm not ready to have kids.

Christina: Fair.

Kaia: And I'm like, “That's okay, because I don't have to worry about that.” Because I think—also it might be different—I think it's different for Hala because she works with young kids a lot more. And I just don't think that I have the patience yet that it takes to be a parent. But that's okay with me because I'm like, “I don't have to worry about that right now.” Like, I have bigger fish to fry. But I think I understand what it would take to parent and kind of just, like, the work I would have to do before becoming a parent, you know?

Christina: Yeah. Which might mean that when you do make a decision whether or not to have children, maybe that would also be a more intentional than reactive decision. Or at least, I don't know, I guess some people do become parents reactively, but also maybe it’s—I think some people just don't really have a lot of information about what it will be like to be a parent.

Kaia: Yeah. Definitely.

Hala: Yeah. Well, my growing up with thinking about having kids has changed over the years. Like, I used to want to adopt because I had—my grandma was a foster mom, and I had seen that, so I've seen kids in the system and then I wanted to make a difference. So, anyway, I've—currently, now—I've thought of maybe having my own kids, and also adopting is still a potential option. But I'm pretty sure I definitely wanna have my own kids.

But regardless of what I decide to do, I definitely would use the techniques, and I would not even have to just use the techniques, I would ask my mom for advice on how to go about certain situations. And, yeah, I've been thinking of having kids, you know, no rush, but in the next, like, hopefully maybe in a little over five years. We'll see. But just because I want her to be a huge part of their life. I want her to be around for a lot of their life and to be able to, you know, be their grandma that's around, not just their grandma they know about. But I want her to help me raise my kids. So I definitely would, to answer your question, use her parenting techniques to my best abilities but also ask her for advice all the time and let her be around my kids so that they can learn from her. So, yes.

Christina: Yeah. It sounds like you've absorbed—I assume, from your mom, maybe from other places as well—a very important lesson that I really want everyone to, in our society, to absorb about children, which is that you shouldn't be doing it by yourself. It's just too hard to parent without other people.

Hala: Definitely.

Christina: And I'm not even talking about, like, being married or something, but just having people around you to help with the practical and more abstract aspects of parenting, it's just, I think, how humans are supposed to be. And, yeah, how fortunate you will be to have a mom who's I know ready and willing to do as much as she can with your children as well, when that time comes.

Hala: I definitely agree with everything you just said.

Christina: Melissa, that actually brings up a question for me. Assuming that you do become a grandparent at some point, which is, of course, an assumption with the age that your children are, but if we were to look out that far, what do you think you would do different differently as a grandma versus as a mother?

Melissa: Yeah. I've had—I’ve thought about this a little bit because I have other—I have friends who've become grandparents, and we've had conversations about the grandparent role, you know? With all of this that we're talking about, and with what I do for my work with others, that the grandparent role would be a new hat, you know, that I would have to find the way for it to fit where I would still continue to wait for my children to ask for the advice, and try my best to not insert my advice before them asking, and have them find their own way with those relationships. And, you know, again, these are conversations I've had with friends who've taken on that role and really having to learn to bite their tongue to not insert themselves where—when they know the answer, they know better, they know, but—

Christina: Or they think they do, anyway. Yeah.

Melissa: Right. But to really allow them—to allow Hala and Kaia—to find their own way as parents will be another thing, will be to grandparent with intention.

Christina: Yeah. And you're still parenting at the same time is what I'm hearing.

Melissa: Right.

Christina: Which means allowing your children to make discoveries and make mistakes and, yeah, not be controlled all the way along their path.

Melissa: Absolutely. Yes. We'll have a follow-up podcast in ten years to have that conversation.

Christina: Wow. Yeah, that sounds wonderful, thinking about all the future babies. Well, is there anything else that you guys want to share with each other or with our listeners?

Hala: Just—I’ve basically said the same thing, but just grateful to have a family that's very compassionate and caring and able to have hard conversations and not—you know, we're not perfect, but we hear each other out, and, you know, if we need space to come back to whatever the topic was, we let each other have that, and then we can talk more calmly. I'm glad to have a family that can do that, and that I get along with, because I really do—now that, you know, we're older, me and Kaia have always pretty much gotten along, but, you know, there was a little sibling rival stuff.

Christina: Right.

Hala: But we have a great relationship, and I really consider my mom and my sister, like, friends. So I'm just lucky to have them. That's basically what I have to say about the whole thing.

Kaia: I think what I have to say is that I think, like, I'm not a parent, but I do know it's a lot easier said than done. And that for parents, it's okay to make mistakes. It's just, like, you have to learn from them. Like, there were plenty of times where she did, you know, lose her cool. Like, when I was growing up, I think that often happened with spills, like whenever I would spill something. It took many times of me spilling stuff and her, you know, being reactive or whatever for her to be able to be who she is now, and that just—you just need to make sure that you're reflecting on what you do.

Christina: Right.

Melissa: It's funny that you say that, because I was thinking about spills earlier in this conversation, and, you know, I talk about them in my class as something that I don't know why trigger me so much—spills—but I was thinking about how, over the years, I would start to ask you to call me on it, right? To call me, to remind me that it's just a spill, and we can, you know, clean it up and move on. But it took—you're right, it did take me first, you know, a lot of feelings and reactions before I got to that point of asking you to call me on it. Yeah. And now I really don't react at all. It's been a process for me.

Christina: That sounds brave, Melissa.

Melissa: Yeah.

Christina: Very brave.

Melissa: Thank you. Putting myself out there.

Christina: Yeah. And indicative of the kind of cooperativeness that you guys have talked about throughout this conversation. Well, thank you, the three of you, for being here and sharing what's, you know, pretty personal stuff together. I have learned a lot, actually, from listening to you guys, and I'm grateful for that. And I'm sure our listeners are as well.

And I'll say to the listeners, if you guys wanna hear more about our work with children, for my part, you can find me online at RespectfulCaregiving.org. And, Melissa, where can people find you?

Melissa: Well, I also am just so appreciative of the conversation—both Christina with your questions and leading the discussion, and Hala and Kaia for, you know, learning more and more about you and us together. You can find me at UpBringingConsulting.com.

Christina: Great. Well, thank you all for being here. And, yeah, maybe we will have a follow-up at some point, but, in the meantime, I wish you well and the same for our listeners.

Hala: Thank you.

Kaia: Thank you.

Melissa: Goodbye. Thank you.